The Universal & Indestructible Skill of Sales. | David Perry author of Game Of Sales.

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These are behemoths companies and he's a top sales person there in this episode, you'll learn why sales is a marketable and portable skill that you can take into any area of your life. The benefits of sales, it's one of the few professions where you don't have to trade time for money, but there's some tough times too. And David will show you how to prepare for the dark side of sales and also power through when you find yourself in one of those situations. Also ask him why salespeople quit. He's got an interesting answer. And also a powerful solution and how to become automatically persistent. We can all use that. So if you're thinking about getting into sales or you're in a funk in sales, or you could just use some of the skills to apply to your everyday life to have more, do more, be more than say no more. Enjoy today's episode, stick around to the end. That way you can learn how to connect to me more. My guest today is David Perry, author of game of sales lessons learned while working at Adobe, Amazon, Google, and IBM, David. Welcome to the sales life. Thanks Marsh. Glad that we can finally connect, , so David, you get an MBA from Cornell university. It just a clear path. , you become an analyst and a programmer, and yet you leave to become a salesperson. When I think of sales, many times people get into the sales industry as a last resort yet. yet you made it a first choice a So when you elected to take the leap and get into sales, what did your family say? You know, my family was, , in incredibly supportive because the jump into sales and business development involved at, IBM, for example, they have something called levels, right? So it was a two level jump promotion into a business development and sales role. So they were very supportive and, and , there's a lot of strategy and, work with the senior executives and so forth, involved in that initial move. Once you made the jump, was there a time that you kind of looked back and was like, I don't know if I made the right decision or not? Oh, I mean, for sure. There are certainly been, , many points where I've questioned , my direction and , what I always come back to though, is that. I just try to recenter myself on why is it that I'm doing what I'm doing? And once I focus more on the why, it always helps to bring me back and make me realize how grateful I am for the fact that I am focused on sales and that it is really the optimal path for me. And I think probably for many different people. And I also believe that just about anybody can be. Good at sales and that there's a certain like full set that you can learn. And there are things you can do to get you past those trying times, for example. . You know, when I think of elite salespeople like yourself that have worked on the, some of the top companies in the world, , when you think of high level salespeople, they are, when you see them really, , they jam up your social media feed with the flashy cars and the expensive watches and the big houses and the me, me, me! Yet, when I look at David Perry, you're more like the quiet storm. What's the thinking behind that? Oh, yeah. Well, the thinking behind that is that those other folks are making money from their online presence. Right. They're making money from being showy and they're trying to attract people to themselves in that way. Like, this is. My livelihood, right? My livelihood is on the practicing salesperson, right. I'm working with clients and that's my livelihood. So I think that's really the difference. And so, what I really set out to do is, , as a salesperson and a leader, I want to help people grow. I want to help people mature in their career paths and. I have a little bit of a straighter line than I did not as many, maybe not as many ups and downs. And so I think that's really the difference. And if you ever see me online, is showing off or Ferrari or something, terrible must have happened to me. Somebody it's Photoshop. Right. Right. What's interesting to me, David is, you're still in the game. There are, there are a lot of people who write books that, , are the, let me tell you how I did it yet. You're one of those guys that, let me tell you how I'm doing. Just amazing. Yeah. So let me ask you this. Sales is a, it's a culmination of experiences. What skills did you take from your time of being an analyst and and a programmer that ended up becoming a superpower, I guess more so as a leverage when you got into the sales aspect of it, There is a whole host of skills that I gathered before. I feel like I really went into sales, let's say, full time and it was The analytical skills is, immensely valuable. I also went to business school about my God. 17, 18 years ago, graduated, let's say 16 years ago. It doesn't seem that long ago. It doesn't, but, so it was really after business school. So I had a career and a set of education and even some strategy consulting experience before I went into sales. Full-time and all of those things have been immensely helpful over time, particularly the analytical skillset, being able to deconstruct, deals or let's say, complex, , your pricing methodologies, , but also, being able to understand financial impact, build business cases, all of those things, are things that I learned before coming into. Sales. And also the notion of being able to ramp up very, very quickly on an industry and a company as a result of my strategy consulting experience. So, , all of that has been immensely helpful. And I, have , the skill set now to be able to, so if I'm working on your company, I can ramp up on that company really, quickly with combination with the strategy consulting skills what a powerful set of skills. So from a weighted standpoint, , how much, what percentage of that was learned in, college versus on the job on the fly. Yeah. So I would say that, , so in college I really didn't learn any, anything, to that standpoint. So college, so I went to a liberal arts school. It's called Colgate university. It's a small liberal arts college in upstate New York. And so I studied economics and political science there so there was nothing, I don't know if I really picked up a lot of those skills. There is more so when I went to business school at Cornell when I started getting into much deeper into the business aspects of sales and picked up some of those skills. I thought that really helped me today. Was that something that you deliberately did leaving the Colgate and going to Cornell, or was it something that you were kind of in between and then just decided, well, let me let me go this direction or was that just, this is what I'm doing. Not at all a direct line. So I graduated from college. I really wasn't sure what I wanted to do. , I had a couple jobs in, in technology, went to business school, but what I really learned was that I wanted to be client facing. I wanted to impact the strategy of companies and I wanted to be a driver of change rather than a recipient. of change. And for that reason, I went to business school with that mindset and went into strategy consulting. And then when I was in strategy consulting, I realized what I enjoy delivering the projects, but I really loved putting the the, pitches together and pitching clients and winning business. Whereas my peers were like really not into that. , so that was like a big indicator for me that I should go into sales. And then also, , at the time, and I think that this role still exists, but there was something called the client executive. This is going back 15 years ago might be called the same thing today at IBM. And these were folks that I know like they were making a ton of money by maybe by today's standards, they were making like two, $3 million. And they were managing really complex relationships and I consider the master commanders their career and, and release of IBM and, also of the client. And they were always able to to generate value for all parties. So I was like that's, doing. That's what motivated me to go into the sales profession? You have the, the privilege of being able to work with so many different age groups and, so many diverse cultures being at At these companies that you've worked for and, you know, David, every generation is sometimes man, I felt like we're like that guy Geico commercial or progressive. I forget which one it is, where you become your parents. And I think, parents are always saying, kids today, then they're banging that, that mantra and the kids today, aren't the same that they once were...But , what is the red thread that runs through younger salespeople? You see, and that you develop today that has become more of an asset prior to generations. Well, of course there's a difference between, the way that different generations approach the profession, but there's also The I think there's, there are things that haven't changed , and , when you hear Jeff Bezos talk about Amazon, for example, he built his business around I know there are a few things that are not going to change. I know consumer. , they're never going to want to pay more for products. They're never going to want to wait longer for products. So in other words they want cheaper, faster, better. So that's what he built his business on. And I think it's the same thing in sales. So the, people that that Excel, they all have the same qualities, they're all persistent, , and assertive. They know what they want to get and they're willing to keep on trying. They have a high degree of, , awareness and emotional intelligence about how they're going to conduct themselves and how they're getting things done. And then the final thing is , they're committed to learning and growing and , those traits I just mentioned regardless of how old or young or whatever, if. The individual doesn't have those traits. I think it's going to be really difficult for them to be successful in sales, but probably a lot of different careers. Yeah. You kick off the book stating that a lot of people would look at your bio and look at what you're doing now and who you're working for. David And say, well, you know, , he's just a natural at this yet. You crack the book from the start saying that you're, nothing special other than just a couple of things that you were committed to. , what are a few of those things that got you to where you are today? , I agree with that and so that assertion. I think anybody can do it or, , be successful in sales , that comes from my experience of coming into the field is as a, let's say a relative newbie, whereas others might've had 10, 15 years experience on me. And also. Getting to know so many different people over the course of my career, it's just like, radically different personalities and approaches , and skill sets that they're bringing to the table and, , each of them finding a way to be successful. So that's how, , I came to that conclusion. Well, the book, is game of sales and I have some thoughts on the word game. But we'd love to hear your thoughts as to why you chose the word game in the in the book title. So I thought a whole bunch of different titles like enterprise sales secrets and all these other things. And it's funny because some of those books actually came out around the same time, , as mine. But, , I settled , on game of sales because I wanted it to be. More of a, fun and engaging, or at least an engaging read. And I've read a lot of business books in my day. I've I don't know 50, a hundred maybe more and what the ones that I liked the best are the ones that are just real and practical and are not too academic. So I just wanted to make a clear statement that's not what this is. This is based on practical experience. , and I didn't want to also, , put it out there that this is some type of, scholarly exercise where , I was, , holed up with a white coat and did research across thousands of profiles of sales professions. I mean, there are books out there, like that in sales and they're great too, but that's not what this is. No, it's not. And like I alluded to at the beginning, , you have just such a unique vantage point that you're still on the game, which is what I love. I love David one could rip the, the first chapter out of the book and just make it a recruiting tool to get others into the sales profession. Because a lot of people think that sales is risky you actually say it's not risky at all. Because sales is portable and it's marketable. So what did you mean by that? Yeah, it really, that again, grew out of my experience when I was in, technology and my job. Completely the opposite of what you just described. It was a totally, unmarketable totally unscalable and not portable. So I could go and say, here's what I'm doing in this role. And the next person would be like, I have no idea what you just said, and it's so specialized and so esoteric and everything is proprietary. Barely anything is transferable. Whereas if you say you're in sales, everybody understands that. Yeah, maybe you're selling this or you're selling that. It's just to some extent it's transferrable. So what I mean by that is that someone in my role, like I've seen people in, my role go to the number of companies that they're able to go to is astronomical hundreds of different companies. And so I don't see that as, risky. What I see as risky is if you get incredibly specialized and. You're so specialized that you find yourself in, a hole that you can't get out of and sales is totally opposite. So if you prove yourself at Adobe or Google or Amazon, or a startup, you're a, you're going to be able to go out there in the market and get work for. Company you want, and maybe even go into a tangential role in sales, if you want, maybe you're done with sales, you know what, I'm going to be a sales trainer, or maybe I want to go into a sales engineering role or a consulting role, or I want to go more into business development or maybe even corporate development if you're working on really large deals. So there's a whole host of other things that, tangent tangents that you can go into as well. Absolutely. one thing I, tell salespeople all the time is. This may not be your end, all profession and sales may not be, but what's beautiful about sales is, you can take this into any area of your life, into any other profession that you want to go to and just leverage it. I run into people all the time that just didn't make it in sales, but they can still use those skills, and apply those to where they are today. Have you had similar situations like. Oh, for sure. That happens on a regular basis where the skill set that I've developed, like helps me in my, my everyday life. And, but I did want to mention something know when you said about the, first chapter of the book being a recruiting tool for people to go into enterprise sales. It's, funny. Cause I guess it, it does kinda read that way, but the, real intent there is to just reconnect sellers with the why of like, why are they doing it? And if they can reconnect to that and say, okay I'm in, let's say I'm an enterprise sales or technology sales, or what have you. If I really think about what is it that I'm doing, it's I get to, work with a varied set of incredible companies. Either work for them or with them as. Meeting top business leaders, I'm traveling and going to cool places and events constantly learning because technology is always changing. And I have those other attributes that you mentioned like that I'm building a skillset it's portable. It's something that I can do over the long-term and I can consistently grow. And so I think all those things are really exciting and it was important. I think, to start off the. The journey of the book and that way to just reconnect people with the why and if someone's in a dark place, then reconnecting with the why they're doing it is going to help them not only to rekindle their interests in sales, but also to hopefully motivate them to go through the rest of the book and be like, okay I, this is something I really want to commit myself to. So it was the the, first chapters, tend to be helpful, but also kind of a hook for the rest of the, uh, Dude. I like slammed the book down. When I first read that, I'm like, yes, like it is, you know, and it you, said it all in one paragraph, like something that I try to I didn't put it as succinctly as you did, but it's just something man that you can take anywhere and everywhere. Th that you want to go now, , as, as much as I would love to say that, sales is all rainbows, unicorns and blow pops. There's a dark side of it also. Which was my favorite chapter. Because I think many times David, that, we give salespeople or perspective salespeople. We give them wings, but we don't give them roots, meaning that, A key ingredient as you write is having that unshakable resilience in sales. And, I think many times that even though the sales profession is so lucrative and you're not trading time for money and it really just pays out massive dividends. I think many times that we don't give salespeople the roots, our perspective salespeople are the ones that are in the business. Now we don't give them the roots to be able to. I don't know whether the storms, they're not prepared to handle them, you know? like chip shortages and economic crashes and weather related situations and tragedies. So speaking of the dark side of sales and preparing them for the dark side of. What should perspective, people that are interested in getting in sales, what should they expect? And then if they're in sales and they're in a funk how can they push through the dark side? Yeah. Great question. And as I thought about the process and the different components of. Of the book there are 12 chapters, but each one is in an individual. Let's say it's both a problem that needs to be solved by the individual, but it's also an ideal. And so the dark side of sales chapter is what I wanted to do for the reader. And again whether they, whether they realize it or not, I'm basically easing their pain of like being in the sales profession by helping them to set realistic expectations for what they're going to face as they go through their career. And I mentioned a whole host of things. And the funny thing is I didn't mention any of the things that you were talking about. I obviously was not able to predict a pandemic. I I didn't predict that, but I talked about, I was like whatever it's going to be, there's going to be change. There's gonna be tough times. And I gave let's say eight or 10 examples that you're sure to face that are difficult. In your sales career. And by just by changing those, expectations and just making sure that people are aware of those things are coming when they happen, it dramatically softens the blow, right? This way. It's not this unexpected thing. They're like, okay, I'm ready for it. Massive, massive difference. Huge value in that chapter again, whether they realize it or not. So someone that hasn't been through it, they're not gonna they, w they're not going to be like, oh, I read that in game of sales and now I'm better off. They're not gonna do. But they're going to be better off and that's great. So that's, my intention there. And, but the other point is around the, the, dark side of sales what, what is it like, why, what makes it the dark side? So it's like, some people think, oh, well it's, it's about like people being underhanded or people lying or whatever. Like, no, that's not at all. What I'm talking about. What the dark side of sales is, your it's, all within yourself. It's your reaction? To uncertainty or a difficult situation that is inappropriate. So you're inappropriately reacting or inappropriate, engaged with a difficult situation. And in my force, you to spin and spin and spin downwards into a dark place. And you're resting in a place of like fear and anxiety and and feeling like you're helpless and your, daughter. So those things so I get I give the people the, the, tools to get out of that, to stop, spinning, and get out of it. And so that's what the, to me, the dark side of sales is it's that inappropriate reaction to to uncertainty to these changes and because I'm in it, I can, I can see when people are falling into that, negative. Even the best people, even though it happens to me. It happens to like, I don't care who the, I know all the top salespeople at Adobe. All the guys like in girls, like even, they have moments where they're kind of falling into that cycle. And but they snap out of it quickly. It might even be a momentary. Whereas I see others that end up, let's say not being successful or leaving the company or what have you. They're, they're like living there and that's so I'm really trying to make sure that I provide people tools to get over. Yeah it, it, really speaks to letting people know that you're not alone. And I think many times sales is, it's kind of like wrestling not WWE wrestling, but the regular high school wrestling where it's just you and the other opponent or other person on the. And sometimes, I mean, there's nowhere you can hide. And it's a solo sport at times, even though it's a collective effort many times, man you've, felt like you're the only one. So even, David, if if they're not in sales and are getting into sales, at least they can use your book as a reference guide to go back to. Okay. Now I kinda know what you're. Cause you can sit there and preach it all day long, preparing them, Hey, this is, but yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And they don't actually get it, but at least they have now a point of reference using your book that they can now relate to once they go through it. And then continue on and it as well. So why do salespeople quit? Yeah. There's so many reasons. But I think it really comes down to really two. And I think the first reason is they're, not aligned with their direct manager. And then the second reason is they don't believe that the expectations that are placed upon. R achievable. So those are, that's it, those are the two reasons and there, and sometimes they can happen together. And so you could, what I mean is like you could have the best cup being, working for the best company or the best manager in the world. They give you let's say a certain territory or they give you something to sell and it's just simply not sellable or the, maybe the number is too large. Yeah, maybe it takes maybe it's you're selling million dollar deals and each of those deals takes a year and you got three customers. They give you a $10 million number, right? That's a bit of a hyperbole. Yeah. It's not very inspiring to be able to w if you're in that situation. And so that's, that's a big reason why people leave and, granted that perception may or may not be real. It may be totally achievable, but if the sales person doesn't think that they can be successful then, they'll leave. And, as I mentioned the, the manager so what happens is on occasion, for whatever reason a sales manager and And a seller just might not be aligned. And that goes to the that's to my point of that, there are so many different ways to be successful and maybe for whatever reason that they're just not seeing eye to eye. And and that could be another reason. So yeah. How does a salesperson develop some of their confidence, so they get into the business, not quite sure. It's a rejection based business. You're going to fail more than you succeed, but that's the only way that you succeed. So what are some methods that salespeople could use to increase their confidence while getting rejected all at the same time? Yeah. It's, it's funny you say that because I, don't even, I don't even notice it. If I'm like, quote unquote rejected or if I fail I I, try to learn from if I feel like I failed to try to learn from that, but the rejection thing, it's just, I don't know. it doesn't it doesn't phase me at all. And as a matter of fact, I started recording my attempts and I was shocked by how many times I was actually like, not getting responses. I just assumed I get responses every time. That's how I feel. I feel like if I need to get a hold of somebody I'm getting a hold of that person. But I was like, actually, no, I don't like, there's a lot of misses in there. But I think the way to do that and the way to build your confidence in that regard is by systematizing your approach. You can create a, spreadsheet or or w whatever, tool you might want to use and simply put down, like, make a list of the folks or the companies that you're trying to work with. Have you reached the decision maker? Yes or no? Last action. Next action. And you just cycle through that. There's no hemming and hawing. There's no emotion. You just go through it and you you're is you're able to completely eliminate any of that, like doubt and fear or distraction around who you're going. You're going to go to next. And I think the people that aren't successful, they don't have that structure and this is one of, let's say 50 things you need to do to be successful in enterprise sales, for example. But if you don't have this one, like layer or a structure in your approach, you're not going to be successful. are you referencing to automatic persistence? Yes. Yeah, exactly. So let's unroll that man. Great segue, right? Unroll the the automatic persistence. This, chapter, and I actually recommend that, folks read, like anytime you're going into a new job or new territory read the book, I think it's a great primer, but this chapter in particular is really, important. And so it's, chapter four and it's it's called automatic pipeline. It's really about it's about like, how do you how, are you able to. The approach, a new role or new territory and set yourself up for success. And there really four things that you can do and you need, you have to do all these four things. And if you don't, your odds of being successful are going to be much. But if you do them, like you're going to be I think ahead, of your peers. And so the first thing to do is to analyze your territory. And that sounds really stupidly simple. And people might be rolling your eyes, but I, wonder how many people are actually doing that. And so what I mean by that, Setting aside a day or two or three where you're literally doing nothing but analyzing your territory. I'm talking if you have 50, a hundred, 200, 300 accounts that you're, going after. You list out those accounts, you try to pick different data points, like whatever's important to you and your ability to succeed. Maybe it's location. Maybe it's a a budget size in a certain area. And so you, understand those two or three top things of what makes them a good candidate, but then also two or three things of why they cannot buy. Maybe there's. Highly regulated industry. And they simply can't buy for regulatory reason. And imagine you're wasting a week or a month going after those companies. And then, you discover that, right? You need to know all that stuff upfront. So you're focusing on only the cream of the crop of the companies that are going to yield results and you're not going down a bunch of a blind alleyways. So imagine two people, one person that's spent two, three days upfront analyzing understanding exactly knowing which comp, which of the. 10 20 companies need to go after versus someone else. Who's just guessing. If you play that tape a hundred times that, the PR the person that spends the time upfront analyzing is going to be so much a better off. And almost again, I'd say 99 times a hundred is going to beat the other individual. So that's the first thing. The second thing. Is that, that that pipeline. So I call it the pipeline activator, right? It's like that spreadsheet where you have the list of companies, the name of the individual decision maker. Yes or no last act last action. Next, next action. It just sounds so simple, but again, it's incredibly, powerful because it just moves, it removes all the hanging and hauling and it gives you the confidence that you're focused in the right way. And so I've moved my pipeline forward numerous times in an hour in a single day. Across, let's say 20 different opportunities by using that methodology and then the other so the other two pieces I call it the the opportunity basket, which means what size opportunity are you going after? Are you going after all home runs? Are you going after all singles and doubles or what's your mix? And so I, my assertion is that keep that keep it 50 50 get some low-hanging fruit. Home runs go after both. And it really depends. Like maybe you shouldn't be going after all her home runs or maybe you shouldn't be going on for all singles and doubles. It's you'll get a feel for it, but start off with with that basket in mind and, adjust over time. And if you do that, the benefit of doing that is once you get a single or double end, by the time you go out that home run, you know how the process is, your company works. You know what the paper is. And similarly, if you're talking about home, Getting a single doubles is a lot easier. Cause you're able to form this, like this talk strategically across business issues. And then these little ticky tack deals like become much more matter of fact. And you're able to, get them push them through a lot faster because you're used to dealing with more senior executives and again, focusing on like more strategic topics. So there's mutually reinforcing benefit in that framework. And then the final thing. Let me double click on that room before you go to that. So what I found that was interesting was that you said Mo new sales people, they focus on transactional deals and when you should actually flip the model and go transformational. So speaking of the singles and doubles. My, my thought is, how do you go big if you've never gone big before. Yeah. That's a very, it's a very fair question. And I think what it comes down to is really the final chapter in the book, which is having, a mental model of so in order to go in order to go big in order to move past the singles and doubles. I, I would argue that any sales person that closes well, not any, but most right. Every once in a while, there's somebody who kinds of Lucks into something they happen to have the perfect client, the perfect time. And they're just like taking an order. And that definitely happened, but probably not that much. Any, salesperson that's doing like a complex multi solution. Whatever that deal size is that they're closing. I can guarantee you that they could close something. Maybe even 10 times larger, they have the capability to do it, or that's kind of how they're thinking. Is that a mental mind? Is that a cap? Absolutely. Yeah. It's a, so it's a mental model. It's a mental model. Is this so you need to look at your company, what can it deliver? And then. And it's the most like transformational level. So if your company is working with another company, what is the craziest, like most ridiculous deal that you could possibly imagine and other people in the company to say you're crazy for even thinking that's possible, right? That is you're starting. And so that's where where you, so you have some idea of like how that might work how that would be implemented, who you need to talk to you at your company and their company. And maybe you need to bring in a consulting partner or whatever it is. You understand what that thing is. And then beneath that is, might be the biggest deal at your company. Or maybe the biggest deal in the proxy. So that's I call that like above the line for the the strategic deals and anything below that is more like the transactional deals where it's well, within the grooves of your, of the current operating model or go to market of your company. So, I think having that, understanding that there, there is no box, there is no container for what you're doing. That, that that will help you to think more strategically at the same time. I have to caution folks that that's risky too, right? Because if all you're doing is focused on those crazy big deals like they might not materialize, or it might take a lot longer than you think that's why you need the mix of the singles and doubles I'm, uh, three miles away from the Gulf of Mexico. And there's a lot of guys, man, that they go off shore and they go fishing for Maaco sharks. Yet I have a suspicion that if David Perry was going fishing, he'd be fishing for jaws and not a maco shark. So, okay. So why don't you w why don't you, why don't you bring us home with the, cause I want to finish this this point of the of the automatic persistence. So we have the pipeline activator, we have the opportunity basket. So what's number three and four. Yeah. And we, also talked about analyzing the territory right. Or territory prioritization. And the, so the fourth point is just understanding the commercial model. And so what I mean by that is I, assume that there's a contract available, right? If you're joining a company that there's some deal that's been closed, unless you're at a very, very early stage startup, but regardless, if you need to, go find that contract the most complex one, the largest value one, go through the detail make sure you understand it inside and out. All the sales terms the length of time. The, quantity what the heck is really being sold? What is the customer signing up for here? And if you don't do that, then you're going to make a lot of mistakes in your negotiation process, or even the way you're positioning the deal. What if your positioning, what if you don't really know that? Oh most of our deals are three-year deals or most of our deals are we're just going we really want to go for one. Something like that is so fundamental and I believe it or not. I see, I I've seen mistakes like that being made like really fundamental mistakes with w without an understanding of what the terms and conditions are of the agreement. And even like what the the hangups of the customer customers might be with respect to that particular commercial model and pricing model. So the beautiful thing is once you see that contract, you can visualize, okay, that's all. The little signature on the dotted line. And here are the terms. And so it just makes it much easier to drive towards that. If you know what those what that thing really is, this is where your super power of becoming an analyst really coming to play for, you as well. You speak that your career has had some highlights as well. So it's not all it's not the traditional sales book where I knocked it out of the park every single time. And you're, candid about listing those things. So you've, lost deals in the moment it's gone horribly wrong. You were blindsided. You weren't expecting something. And then you've, lost deals at the end of it also. And for me, David when, I lose a deal, it's, it's because the customer didn't like the interest rate. Cause I work in the car business and they didn't buy a warranty. But when you lose a deal, man it's, millions of dollars, a lot of members on the team years of devotion, man. How do you recover from that? Yeah, it's it's really rough when when you lose a deal like that. And so fortunately there haven't been, haven't been very many along the lines of what you're describing. And the reason is, that I think I take great pains to make sure that I'm kicking the tires along the way. To use it an automotive analogy and the But by doing that, you make sure that the resources, the team are focused in the right way. So I I try to, pull out if I don't think there's an opportunity in there, probably maybe, even sooner than I should sometimes, so, that's how I mitigate against that. But if if I do fail if I do lose the deal, I. I just take a hard look at it. What did I do wrong? What what, could I have done differently? And I try to be way more critical of myself than anyone else would be. And so that's been a consistent theme and, , so that's, really helped me grow. But at the same time, it's like the the further along I get as my career. The I realized I'm just making more and more mistakes, or I see that I'm like, there are more and more mistakes or things that I could have done differently. So it's both a blessing and a curse, I guess, to, to ha to have that perspective. Cause you're constantly making trade-offs between I could have done this, this and this, but all I need to allocate that time in a different way to a different deal. And yeah, that's that's kinda like the art and the science, I think. Yeah. Yeah. David, I think when people read your book even if they're not in the sales profession, I think they can still capitalize on a lot of, what you've poured your heart into. Who's the book not for? The book, the book isnot for . Somebody in sales that like thinks they know it all right. Or they think they're they have nothing to learn. It's definitely not for that person, but I'd say it's just about for, anybody else. And I wrote it specifically for somebody let's say 25, 26 just, it just got into tech sales and trying to figure out how do they go from making, let's say a hundred, 150 to making very consistently 300 K. That is who the book is for. I think the other thing that's important to mention is that I don't know if there's anything that's like, I think there's some things in here that are maybe a little bit counterintuitive, but it's not something that like, let's say, if someone's been in sales in enterprise sales for 20 years, they're not going to read this and be like, oh my God, I'm so surprised. Oh, I didn't know that. Or I didn't know this, but I do think it will help to clarify their thinking. Or at least it will they'll feel like it's autobiographical anything like, yup. This is it. This is true. This, book will help people understand and determine if they're going to like a career in, technology sales. So if you read this book and you're like, that's great. I want to do it, go for it. If you read this book and you're like, oh, that's not for me. Do not go into sales. That's what I would. That's what I suggest my guest today is David Perry, author of game of sales lessons learned while working at Adobe. Amazon Google and IBM, David. Where can people learn more about you get the book? Of course. And I'll let you have the final words you take us home. Yeah. Thanks so much more so you can learn more about me on LinkedIn. If you look up David Perry, Adobe or Google, I'm sure. I'm assuming you'll find me pretty easily. Or you can go to Amazon and look up game. And you'll find the book there. So yes, Marsh it was, you know, a wonderful, a wonderful conversation. And I think I want to leave the reader with just. With the, just one thing. So if you do read the book my, my hope is that you take at least one thing and then apply it to your job in sales, like that day or that week. And hopefully that thing will you'll see that and, start to be able to apply some others as you go. So that's my my. And if you happen to see David standing in front of a Lamborghini, it's not David Perry. If something went terribly wrong. Yes. That's well, if I'm standing for Lamborghini, that's okay. Or if I'm driving, that's fine. But if I'm like showing it off. Yeah, absolutely. Man, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. And I just gotta ask you one last thing, man. The next book that you got coming out, will it have anything to do with crypto yeah. Great, great question. I I'm really fascinated by that space. And I would say that if I do run into the book, by the time it comes out, it will have to deal with it. There won't be. I cannot wait to have that conversation. I'm new into it, but am fascinated. As far as the direction that it's going. And I hope we can continue with a conversation like this in the future. Yeah. They happy to thanks so much, David take care. All right. Thanks Marsh Hey, that's all the time that we have today. Let me know how your progress is going. You can find me@marshbuice.com. That's spelled M a R S H. U I C E it's spelled like juice with a B in front and there, you will find all those socials where hangout and also the links to the YouTube channel. I'd love for you to subscribe to that channel as well. And while you're there, you can walk the aisles and comb through hundreds of previous episodes. And in the bottom, right. Is a mic. And that's a link from you to me. I would love to hear from you, tell me what's going on in your life and also how I can help. I'm no hair, but I'm all ears. Remember the greatest sale that you will ever make is the sale you on you because you're more than enough. Stay amazing. Stay in the sales life.