680. "How Good Humans Sell" with author Catherine Brown
Catherine Brown is just a damn good human. She's the kind of person that brings a smile to your face every time you talk to her or read one of her posts.
Today we'll talk a little sales shop, but remember, sales is a parable to Life because it so closely resembles Life. One minute you're on top of the world, and the next minute the world is rolling back on top of you. In either case, you have to figure it out.
Sales is a profession, but selling is a life skill. Listening to this powerful episode and see what areas you can apply to your Life.
Connect to Catherine Brown on LinkedIn.
Grab a copy of her book here.
Keep it simple. Keep it moving. Never settle. Stay tough.
Surprise. Welcome to an early release of episode six 80 of the sales life. A top 5% podcasts in the world. I'm your host marsh Buice . And today is a celebration. I've got my friend Catherine Brown. Author of how good human sale, the proven path to B2B sales success she's coming on and we're going to talk sales, but remember what the sales life is all about is taking the professional skills that we learn , in sales and apply them to every area of your life because sales is a profession, but selling is a life skill. And I think. Those of us in management and sales. I think we only get half of it. Right. You know, we, we show the potential of how sales the profession can change your life. Yet we do nothing to change the internal wiring, and I don't think we fully prepare incoming salespeople at what's it say? And there's a lot of rejection. There's a lot of conflicting of your mind. Your mind is telling you one thing, but your bank account is saying another and it just, it's tough. I've always said sales is the toughest job I've ever done mentally because sometimes you can do everything right. And it just doesn't work out. And then sometimes you can do nothing, right? And somehow some way it works out. Just fine. So just to give you a brief background of how I met Catherine is when clubhouse first came out, I decided this is a new avenue for me, so I decided to create a room one morning and just start talking. No one showed. Except Catherine Brown. Now I'd never met Catherine. She and I had never talked. I don't know that she even knew who I was. I didn't know who she was, but she popped into the room and she stayed the entire time. She didn't interrupt. I had my little mini podcast session and at the end. We just got to talking. That's what kind of person she is? She had no idea who I was not sure if the message even resonated, but she stayed the whole time to support me. And I never told her that until right now. How much that meant to me. So as you listen today, maybe you're not in the sales profession, but the sales profession is a parable to life. So where we may talk a little shop, see where it applies or how you can apply it. To a specific area of your life. Maybe you're starting a business. So you're going to have to develop some sales skills. Maybe you're trying to get a promotion. So you're going to have to develop some sales skills. Maybe you're thinking about moving to a new town. So you're going to have to develop some sales skills, maybe just, maybe you have your eye on that. Certain someone you're going to have to develop some sales skills. Sales is life. Life is sales. So enjoy my conversation with a damn good human Catherine Brown and stick around to the end where you can learn how to connect to her more. My guest today is one of the best humans in the world that I know. So what better person to write a book? Um, how good human sell that would be Catherine Brown. Catherine. This has been a long time coming and welcome to the sales life. Thanks Marsh it's just such a pleasure to an interesting, to have met you online, follow each other, become fans of each other, and now get a chance to do this together. Thank you. Yeah, and that's the power of social media is, you know, you, you really have this, you know, Catherine and I had this instant connection. Um, she's not too far away from me. She lives in Houston, so we're about three hours apart from one another. Uh, but you know, it's just one of those instant connections that we had. You'd swear that we're just next door neighbors. Um, because as you hear what we talk about today, that prefaces so much in her. It just, it lines right up in our wheelhouse and the message that we're trying to get out there both professionally and also personally, um, as well. So, you know, in preparing Catherine for our conversation today, I always go back with authors and I look at the reviews and I just love, you know, the, the stars are, are cool and it's appreciative, but it's the words that, that actually count. And so when I was, when I was looking at the reviews, you've got like five out of five, five stars, like no negative reviews at all. Um, and you know, as I start reading what is written, which is weighs more heavily because somebody literally took the time to stop it, what they were doing and, and pin a thought or to own that. So much of what was written was there was a lot of people that are not even in sales, Found so much benefit in your work. Why do you think it's resonated for those outside of the industry? It's such a joy to me, marsh, because I do have some non-profits that I love and, um, and also. Recruiters and other people who have wanted to enroll people for things, whatever they're recruiting and enrolling people to still have to put themselves out, out there by asking others to participate. And they struggle with all that same mental game. I think of wondering, am I being too pushy? Have I done enough? Have I done too much? How am I being seen? We call it the spotlight effect where you just turn in and you think everything's about you and you think the spotlight's on you. And really it's not because everyone, everyone thinks the spotlight's on them, which means no, one's watching you since they're watching themselves. But everybody struggles with those same things. And so the fact that I have had trade associations and non-profits buy this book where the subtitle says the proven path to B2B sales, It's just really surprised me in some ways, because I hoped it would be true, but you don't always know if you're going to get what you want. So it's been awesome. Yeah, it it's, it's so powerful. And you know, always say that, you know, sales is a profession, but selling is a life skill. Uh, and some of them, some of us make a living at sales, but all of us make a life at selling because everything that you've achieved in life is because you sold your way there. And everything that you haven't achieved in life is because you settled in, you stop selling. So that's why it's such a joy reading those words and, and seeing that. And, and speaking of the, the mental part of it, which is definitely the it's right in my wheelhouse. You, you being married to a psychologist it's it's, uh, I could, I'd love to be a fly on the wall and listen to y'all's conversation. It's just like hashtag nerd, everything. I mean, it's pretty crazy even to hear the words that my like super cool gen Z kids, like they still have words in their vocabulary that would make you laugh because they've just heard her, them with their parents. So they, it seems out of place or they'll even catch themselves, especially my 19 year old. He'll say something. Oh, okay. I need to like, keep that inside the house, applying a scientific term to something or talking about, I'm talking about creativity or dissonance or bias or these things that we discuss because of our, because of our psychology love is it's funny. Yeah. Did you, did you find that, um, because did you find it an advantage that your husband's a psychologist and being able to not only. Has it served you well and, and, and being that and having that relationship and being able to apply it to, uh, your sales as a profession, but also in writing the book as well. Oh my gosh. Yes. For several reasons. So one, I didn't know until he and I started dating that there's like 10 kinds of psychology. I mean, I'm not exaggerating because when people hear psychologists, they usually think counselor and that's actually not, that's not what he is. And I only mentioned that because there's all these lines of research. So there's neuro psych, which is literally what's your brain, you know, w what neuro, neuro and cognitive, which is what is your brain doing in these human moments. And then there's personality psychology, and then there's industrial organizational. So there's all these kinds. Well, When I talk about and how good human sell I opened the book with is this, the fact that I ran this business to business telemarketing business for 17 years. And I had clients come to me over and over. And they said, we're so excited to work with you because we have a great team. And we were really happy with who we've hired and we know how to sell. We just have a problem with our marketing funnel. We just need more leads. So if you would get in front of more prospects on our behalf, tee them up, qualified them, get them ready for a conversation, then we'll be great. And I, for entirely too long March, like for years, I believed them. I kept thinking each person's like this time is going to be true. This time is going to be true. This time is going, gonna be true. And it was rarely true. And what I mean is they thought their problem was they needed more leads, but the problem. Was, uh, primarily about their beliefs. And the only reason I can validate that, and I know is because I learned how to do research. I conducted some studies and I've tested my hypothesis, which was what is going on here. So just to complete that thought, what I, what I concluded is that people think they need more leads. And sometimes you do need some more leads. I'm not saying you don't need a robust pipeline. Of course we do. But most people fritter away and, and waste the ones they have. Because if that isn't a slam dunk and basically a one-call close people give up too soon because of what they deep down believe about selling. So I wanted to test this hypothesis that my idea was. All people across all industry, continue to worry about this negative sales stereotype and that those beliefs about what sales fundamentally is. I believe that it was affecting behavior and I needed to test it. And so the reason I could even think to test it, the reason I could write a survey that wasn't biased, all of that had to do with just the fact I have in-house counsel. So I was super grateful for that because I just think I'd be a different person if we hadn't been together for over 25 years, because I'm used to hearing, if you have a hypothesis, how will you go about testing it in an unbiased way? And of course not all of your hypotheses are true. So even more so we need to know how to test them. Yeah. Well, I like the fact too, that it's not, you know, you don't have the luxury because of your in-house counsel. You don't have the luxury of just throwing your hands up and saying, ah, it's not working where that's what most of us in sales do. We, like, we always think that the world's, you know, um, you know, out to get us and that's not the case at all. So taking a scientific approach to it, You have, you have tested and pushed forward even though maybe they internal chatter was going on inside of your mind. That's when you, you took the psychological approach. And said, let's test this thing out. Exactly. And you and I have talked a lot, both in the back channel before we recorded, as well as other conversations. And I know I've heard many of your other podcasts where we've talked about this idea too, that you know, what you do in one area spills into others. Right. And so I think. That if you want to test a hypothesis, you have to look and say, well, what would success look like? What is it that I want to know? And this has helped me with overall goal setting. It's helped me to evaluate my marketing campaigns. It's helped me to evaluate different offers. I've created for people where I say, what do I want? First of all, I think a lot of people just don't slow down enough to think about and give themselves permission to say what they even really want. And then how will I know I'm getting there so quick example, um, I know that you know, that I've built a club on clubhouse and a lot of people were in there first and then they dropped away and there's all kinds of there's. I've heard recently there's as many as almost 80 social audio apps now, which I don't even know what they're all because how can there be 80, but supposedly there's 80. And so I stuck with it through 2021 and I. I'm getting so much experience speaking, practicing testing messages and seeing what people like. I decided I would keep going and keep building the club and see what happened. So I started setting some, some numbers for myself. Cause I thought, how will you decide that this is worth it? Is it just for practice? Is it that you need to have a certain number of leads? Is it that you want a certain number of followers that then do a certain thing? I think it's fair to ask. How will I know I'm being successful and to set some goals around that? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I've, I've achieved so much benefit from doing the podcast where, you know, it's just in speaking to what you're talking about now is. It's doing something, you know, I've often said that the podcast isn't for you, it's for me, it's very therapeutic. So instead what it did is it helped me develop consistency because when I first started the podcast, I said, I'm going to do one every single day for one year. Um, and so it pushed the consistency that I would have a five minute podcasts every day, which made my thoughts more concise. So I had to deliver it in a streamlined message, but then also it awakened me to all the colors around me. So even though I was going through hell, which was the black and white, it doing that method of doing that, um, actually recalibrated me. It actually made me take notice and it made me appreciate that there was a, there was a brighter future ahead and it's helped me in so many ways. Yes. Um, you know, moving forward. So I liked that you, that you, that you bring that out. How has. How has the clubhouse been for you? And, and is it, is it still worth it to you? Yes. Great question. So my latest invention at that, cause I used the new year to think through, um, my goals and quantify what I wanted and decide what the quarterly milestones would look like if it's the annual goal, things like that. So I decided I would keep going for 20, 22, um, in, in the, in the app for now. And, um, they've, they've increased some functionality. They're always rolling out new things. And so now there are replays and now you can download the audio. Right? So one of the things that I. Managed to do, which was not an intention setting out because it was a new thing. So it was, it's sort of like we're building the plane as we're moving along, but one of the things that's happened Marcia's I built the most amazing community of like-minded people. And so I am starting to be able to repurpose those conversations for other things, for marketing and for content and I'm and my mind, and my creativity is just going crazy. Thinking about how else to capitalize on for the benefit of all of the moderators, for the benefit of all the people in the community. How can the regular contributors to this? How can we get the most out of this for each of our individual businesses, because what has happened? And I think LinkedIn can be this for people too, but what's happened is they're people who butt right up against each other who in another world or pre pandemic or. If they were slightly different people, they would consider themselves competitors. But while there might be just the littlest bit of overlap, they're mostly complimentary. And even if they are offering almost exactly the same thing, we don't live in the same place anyway. And so I found this community of people that I've built that have become these trusted advisors and friends. And I, I just can't, I really can't believe. That in the whole world, across the world, we found each other. It's quite miraculous actually. And I think what happens is people come in and if it's not their vibe, they leave just like, who follows a podcast. Right. Like I follow you because you pop up and sometimes I see you live, you know? And I, I see it, you know, when you, when you play it live and I'm walking or listening, I listen. I mean, it's like, oh, there he is. And you feel like you found a friend and that sounds weird to a, not very big social media person, but I am astonished at the community I've been able to build. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, you know, it makes the, as you're saying that, and you were, you mentioned the word competitors, you know, I was, uh, I just wrote about this the other day, where, um, in Simon Sinek's book, the infinite game, he, um, by his own admission, He would, when he wrote a book, he was always looking to see where he compared to Adam Grant. Um, and his biggest thing, he saw Adam Grant as a competitor. And, uh, you know, so he became just this insatiable trying to beat Adam Grant. And it wasn't until they got on the stage together that the MC of the event, uh, decided it would be a good idea for one of the authors to say something nice about the other, not knowing that Simon Sinek, Adam Grant, I didn't know this story. Oh, this is great. So Simon Sinek went to the stage, the here's this crowd of people it's being recorded. He looks back at grant, he looks back out at the audience and he says, you represent everything that I'm not. And I, you make me incredibly, um, vulnerable because, and make me feel weak because the things that. Come easy for you. Our struggle for me and Adam Grant walked up to the microphone and it said, that's funny that you say that because I feel the same way about you. And it was in that moment that Simon Sinek chose Adam Grant as a worthy rival instead. And so what he ended up doing is, is now, you know, choosing a worthy rival, and, and speaking to people that are joining your clubhouse. Those people make you level up those people either they reveal your weaknesses, your inadequacies, and they help you level up. Or you say that's where I want to go. And so you push up to become that more worthy rival, and you just keep getting better and better and better do you find in, in your community? That's a little bit there's, there's less of out to get you a more, so everybody just trying to level up and get better. Absolutely. And so we keep a back channel where we have a slack workplace open and we're talking behind the scenes because sometimes the app, you can't do a direct message fast enough. And it's just kind of messy to be inside the app. So we have, we all have our laptop open. Then we have the other way we're talking. And I mean, every person, Marshall, while someone else is sharing and basically giving away this free counsel based on their experiences every time. People are saying what a great point. So-and-so, that's amazing. I've never heard it described like that. Like just, just, just keeping love on top of each other. Every time we meet and. And who gets to do that. I mean, just like you said, with the podcast, probably all the people you get to interview, like who, who gets to, who gets to meet people and spend time with like-minded people who inspire them so much. But, but coming back to selling, I would say too, that this is advice I give, you know, with my corporate clients. When I go in and do a series inside corporations, this, I say that the beliefs that you want to build that will serve you in selling there there's four ways you build beliefs. And one of them is by paying careful attention to your environment and your environment is the people you spend the most time with. So we have to be very careful. Sometimes we're related to people who aren't helpful to us, and that's a whole other thing we have to tackle. Right. But when we can choose with whom we, who we follow and with whom we spend the most time, there's so much about that, that is, um, is going to help us. You know, reach higher and go for more and build our belief that more is possible. Or we're going to feel like I can't leave this group behind and we're going to sort of stay stuck. Um, I don't know if you've ever read the big leap. I hadn't read it, but I'd heard gay Hendricks talk on podcasts. So I thought I knew it. And then I read it for a book, a book club I'm in recently, and I can't recommend it enough because he talks about the upper limit problem. And this is one of the things he discusses is that he says, you know, criticism and worry and avoiding difficult conversations and all these things that are interpersonal with your people around you. They're all signs that you are. Making yourself stay stuck because you are engaging in this destructive behavior. That's unhelpful, but when you use praise and when you seek out people who are trying to bust through it and raise their upper limit, they're trying to move to a higher level and move into what he calls your zone of genius. Then you'll find that very empowering because you'll model and practice what they do. And I have totally found that to be true. I I've, I found that book really instructional. Yeah, that's fascinating. I just wrote down the book, so I'm definitely, I'm talking today to Katherine Brown author of how good human sail, one of the best humans in the world. We definitely want to connect to her on, uh, own LinkedIn. So shifting gears a little bit back to, um, sales itself, you know, I think Katherine would get about 50% of sales, right? So we, we, we teach the, uh, We teach the process. Um, yet we don't address the. The internal wiring and, and that goes back to, um, some of the beliefs that we have, and also we just, we don't teach the habit part of it. So how do you, and, and really, I say half, you know, 50, 50, it could be more 70, 30. I think if I were to err on one side or the other, I would rather teach someone the internal, you get the internal wiring, right. And let and let the process take care of itself then the other way around. So how do you, how do you approach, um, your clients and also in your own. Because it never goes away. So how do you, how do you approach the, the mental side of the game? Is it weighted 50, 50 or more so full? As funny as, as you know, in how good human cell I have this circle, it says beliefs on one side and process on the other split in half. And I really did that to justify why it was opening, how good human cell with three chapters unbelief to start with. But I do think if you had to pick you'd want to have more practice, unhealthy beliefs and less structural process, because the problem is that just like my clients, I was talking about with my business to business telemarketing firm, I mean, they were real heavy on process, but law and beliefs. And so they didn't use the leads I gave them. Right. You won't use the process. You won't use the tools that you give your sales team. If they don't believe that sales is honorable important, purposeful work. And then in terms of beliefs about themselves, believe that they simply, because they're a human being walked, walking the face of the earth, that they deserve to enjoy an experience. A purposeful, meaningful life. And if you have a low view of yourself, because you might have had a really hard life and a very difficult story of origin and, or you have a healthy view of yourself, but you're embarrassed to be in sales. You won't use the training. You will not use this as, this is why people invest gazillions of dollars. And I won't name the programs, but there are so many licensable and franchise sales training brands that have great aspects to them. I mean, I've really actually never met a system where I didn't like most of it because people figure it out. They figure out steps that work, and then they sell them. But what I'm arguing is that people won't use them. They even spent tens and tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars and bring systems into a company. And the same 20% of people who were the high performers before remained the high performers, because they've got the belief part, right. I'm just deeply convinced that this is the case. So let me ask you this, someone who, because that sometimes, you know, Beg the theory of, well, those people just naturally have it are, you know, what about the 80% people that, um, okay. You know, taking me for example, in 1998, when I got into the car business, um, I was, uh, the, the repo man was chasing me. I had student loans that were being garnished. Uh, the IRS wanted me, I had a 500 credit score. I mean, I was like single parent, no refrigerator, no stove. Like, you know, and I stumbled into sales. I was like, God, it can't get any worse than this. But you know, I got into the business and I saw what the opportunity was. So I started chasing the opportunity itself. And once I started achieving some of that, then it started. Squelching the, you know, dampening the voices. I don't think the voice has ever go away. So speak to someone who is, who they keep getting back. What John ACOF calls is broken soundtrack. We go back to these internal is broken internal playlist. How can someone get better at sales are advanced in sales, even though sometimes that chatter is just banging out. Great question. So I like this model. I'll just speak for a couple minutes and do a little brief teaching of this model that I talk about a lot in my courses. And I got the model from a. Life coach, who is the daughter of Michael Hyatt, who you've probably heard of. Um, he does the amazing best year ever planner. And, um, and he's written a book platform and, you know, whole bunch of other great books. His daughter, Mary has her own business. And on Mary Hyatt's podcast is where I heard this. I was gonna say, I wish I'd thought of this myself. I want to give her credit where it's due. She has summarized how people change into somewhere. She heard it, but this is where I heard it was for Mary into the acronym. Bear B E a R. Okay. B E R B stands for beliefs. Easton's for emotion, a stands for actions and our sins for results. And what she's saying is that it's a cascade of one to the other. So what I believe will affect how I interpret, how I feel. So I'm feeling nervous. My saliva is drying up. My stomach is turning over. Um, I, um, you know, I feel sweaty. Okay. If that's happening, we don't know without context, if you're excited, because you're about to go on a rollercoaster and you love roller coasters, or if you're terrified, because you're scared of public speaking, you're afraid you're going to be embarrassed. And you're standing in the wings about to go out, right? In the former example, you'd say, this is thrilling. This is how thrilling feels. But in the, in the Le ladder example, you would say, this is how terror feels. Okay. So what I believe affects emotion label. I give it which affects the actions. I'll take. Which affects the results. So I always go back to beliefs. And so your listeners might be thinking, okay, bears cute. I like that. What do I do with it? Well, I would say reverse engineer, if you don't like where you are at this moment in whatever it is, health relationships, love your bank account, your sales pipeline, look at where your results are at present reverse engineer and say, what actions am I taking? What was I thinking or feeling as I was taking those actions? And what might that be saying about what I'm believing is true? So I recently had an opportunity. I did the biggest keynote talk I have done to date, which was a, a national corporate conference. Um, that was actually in Austin recently. And. It was just a really beautifully produced event. So, you know, I speak on zoom every day. I've done lots of podcasts and I'm on clubhouse all the time. So it's not the speaking part. It was that I walked in and it was like really a high stage. The person looks small, they had hired a professional DJ. They had great lights. I mean, it was just leveled up from stuff I'd done before. And I was in the middle of this bare acronym, marsh. Like I was every resource I had to work myself through the process. So I could really show up and deliver. I was intimidated. I mean, I was stayed in the back. I fell myself with my arms crossed and I was like, stop it, stop it, stop it. Because I knew the behavior was like, oh wow, you're feeling something. So I noticed what I thought I was feeling, went back to beliefs and said, what are you thinking is true? Are you thinking you don't belong here? Are you thinking that you're not prepared? Well, that's not true. You're prepared. You know, I had to coach myself, but I just felt so. I just felt so lucky March because I had some tools to work myself through that. So I was know several people went before me and by the time it was my turn, I actually changed my intro because I realized on the fly that there were some things I could say that would make it dovetail even better with the speakers before me and deliver an even more beautiful, beautiful talk. That would be helpful. But I didn't, I couldn't have had the presence of mind to do that if I had let myself be emotionally hijacked. Yeah. So I think people aren't getting the selling. They want, yes, we need tools. And another time we can, we can talk about what all, what all those great tools are, because it's not that I don't think they matter at all, but I think this is where things really live and die as you have to get this part right. First, because otherwise you become emotionally hijacked and you just quit people quit. Yeah. Yeah. You speak in chapter two, um, and you lead off, um, why don't we get in our own way as salespeople and you, and you lead the chapter off with that. And, and Catherine, we can, we can, we can get in our own way, right off the bat. We can be outpacing everyone. We can be 24 years in this business and three pounds just trips us up. What, what, what is that? Why, why is that happening? So I love the work of Dr. Carol Dweck, who talks about mindset. I think every day it's about committing to not be fixed. So she talks that she has done. She's a social psychologist at Stanford. She's still doing research as of. 2022. It hasn't retired yet. And she started out doing research on children and education, but it's now the research has gone all the way into adults and business and all these other areas and domains. But the idea is that there are two ways to be, and she said talks about a fixed mindset and a growth mindset, and everybody faces challenges. But if you have a fixed mindset about this particular issue, then you'll find yourself saying things like, well, I just don't have it. You actually believe if you're fixed in something, you believe that a person literally is born with an ability to do something or not do something. So people will say this about, about sellers, right? They'll say, you know, they just have it. And, um, and for, I will say the most of the time, that's just a cheap, easy cop-out because it means that, you know, I don't want to do the effort and then it's threatening to you because if you're very fixed in your mindset, you think, well, what will it mean about me if I fail at this? So I have to believe that this is not even possible because it's reserved for others, a growth mindset expects to work. And it's, it's still kind of equally sucky when it's hard. Right. But, but says, I actually anticipate that with practice, I will improve and they don't believe a person just has. It, whatever it is, they, they, they don't believe a person just has it. And what's so interesting is that you can be fixed in one area and you can be growth minded in another. So I have very growth mindset about my ability to create valuable sales programs and to develop new keynotes and to come up with different offers. But I can go through seasons of my life where I feel fixed about, you know, about my health, right. Or about fitness. And I think that this is just, this is just too hard, I guess when you hit a certain age, you know, this is just what happens. And I have to catch myself in those moments and say, why are you being fixed about that? You're not that way about other things. So I think it's really important that we be also generous with ourself and that. Where we fall because we're not all one or all the other. Yeah. I found that interesting that you wrote about that, that we can both be fixed and, uh, have a growth mindset. And often, you know, when I read that, I was like, you know, that is true because sometimes I get so mad at myself. I'm like, why can't I take some of these skills that I learned in sales? And, but in my personal life, I'll have a short temper and just blow up. I'm like, I wouldn't have done that on a customer. Like, come on, man. Like, you know, it's having that, I guess, first of all, it goes with the awareness of being able to see, okay, we're having an old man day. Exactly. And going back to your prior question, I think to marsh that, um, it's kind of like when you're saying, what does a person do? We don't, we don't tend to have trained ourselves to start with the belief we, we, where we, where we jump in as midway, where we notice how we're feeling. So what we're going to do. Just start to become more aware of how my feeling in this moment. Am I feeling caged? Am I feeling scared? Am I feeling agitated? Um, anger as an example, I just read this recently. I recently read Bernay brown, his new book, that's called Atlas of the heart. And she has this amazing chart in this, in Atlas of the heart that shows like people will say I'm angry, but there's like 15 emotions that are underlying right under that. That's actually anchors how they have learned and been trained to express it. But it might actually feel like I'm impatient or scared or whatever, you know, whatever else it could be kind of under that. And so that's where we notice what's happening. And then I think training ourselves to go back in both directions is to say, okay, how am I getting here? What, at this moment, if I were to journal, like what, what am I believing is true in this moment? That's the B part, but then also pausing long enough to not take action. Um, one of the things I like to do is I like to encourage everybody business owners who are their own seller, as well as sales professionals, full-time sales professionals. I, every Friday I do a post on LinkedIn. That's about follow-up Friday. And I said, this is, this is the chance for you to go catch all the people that you have had trouble reaching and bring back up your CRM, bring back up your list, bring back up your phone and sit and do the work. And whether you'll do the work and what you tell yourself, this is right smack in the middle of that bear model, because when the name pops up, what story do you make up about that person? Yep. A hundred percent and, and, and, uh, I want to get to that in a, in just a second. Let me, let me, let me put a, put a thread in that. Um, you know, the speaking to, cause I want to, I want to put a little game plan in, or some action for those in selling itself. Uh, before we get to that part is, you know, speaking to the introverts out there, speaking to, and some of those that the extroverts, you know, many times people think that, um, the having this sales ability is just being able to talk, but it's not, it's not that at all. And then many times there are especially new salespeople. They always lean more toward the, the, uh, the technical side of it, you know? And, and, and I, you know, Catherine, I had a, I had a salesperson who he could put on a clinic. On how my product was put together, the history of it. Um, how it, how it it'll, it'll what it'll do all of these kinds of different things. But, you know, he was one of the worst performing salespeople there was and just, I mean, he knew everything. Um, but you know, he was, he was, um, he was technically sound, but he was emotionally bankrupt because I think so many salespeople lean more. They, they make the, the technical side of it, a crutch. And because they really don't know how to relate to customers on an emotional standpoint, they lean more so toward the, the technical side and talking about the nuts and bolts, but they miss everything else. And you say there there's two things that will, will actually advance your career. Number one, make it. And number two, um, it's, it's the it's it's listening for and, and being really tuned in to the three human needs. So what are those three human needs? And, and, um, how can we apply it in, in, in everything that we do? Yes. So we're talking about the motives and values, powerless, the MVP list I pick and VP. So it'll remind people of other things, you know, with most valuable player, but the MVP Venn diagram has a circle that says comfort, another circle that says status and other security. And what psychology research teaches us is that most worries, most human motivation, most desire to change. Most reasons people buy, they actually they're the, this product or service we sell. It's advancing how a person feels about their comfort status and security or it's threat. And if you're threatening it and I think, okay, I like your product, but you talk too much. And if I bring you into this committee presentation, you're going to embarrass me. Right. Because I don't trust you. Well, that's threatening status, right? So I will not, I will not move into Don Miller likes to say, people will not move into confusion. Right. Then we'll move into confusion. So threatening confusion, things like that, that, that, that won't work. So one of the things I've been practicing, this is kind of a new thing. I'm testing out with clients, but one of the things I've been practicing marshes that if you're in every sales interaction that you're in, it could be that first discovery call. It could be a cold call. It could be that you've talked several times, but you're selling something very complex and you have to present it to multiple people. There was actually a demo or whatever the situation is. If we, as sellers were to ask ourself every time, wonder what this person might be. Hmm. We don't even have to ask it of them. We might ask some version of that if it's appropriate, but I'm saying that technical seller does that even have to try to figure out how to ask it. If they just ask themself and slow down from their own talking and presenting and, and credentialing, right? Making themselves look competent. If they say, what might this person be feeling at this moment? If the answer is I have no bloody idea, then you are talking too much. You need to shut up because they'll tell you they will volunteer and tell them. If you can run a sales conversation where they talk more than you talk. And I have a lot of words on the podcast, cause we're doing this interview, but I'm going to give your readers a number to shoot for. I talk about this and how good human cell when I'm actually on, when I'm running a sales cycle, when I'm on a sales call, my goal is to not speak, but 30% of the time, only way you can do that is if you, first of all, refuse to present when you first get on, because if you don't get on and say so glad to meet you. And I think we were introduced by so-and-so and here's what I'm thinking we're going to do. Does that sound good? Great. And then you start asking questions. If you don't do that, they'll say, why don't you tell me about you and the novice sales person? We'll just start talking, but it's like, don't do it. Don't don't don't don't do it because number one, you don't know which things they really care about hearing. And number two, I think it's a sign that you didn't set the call up. Well, and that in the, in the absence of leadership, they're filling in the. So it's okay to say I would love I've actually, I love to talk about how I help people. I'd like to ask you a couple of questions first, so that I cover the parts that are most relevant. Would that be okay if we do that first and then note to yourself don't ever let that happen again? Because the reason they asked is because they were unclear. I think it's because they were unclear about what was going to happen. So you have to set it up to understand what goals they're trying to accomplish. And if you ask them open-ended questions, they will talk most of the time, which will enable you to make inferences about how they might be feeling and be tie that back to that, that motives and values powerless. We're wondering, what are they concerned about? Is it ease of use, right? Is it the way it's going to make them look or feel which there's something wrong with that? Right. That's all human motivation. So I can't answer those questions if they don't give me enough information and they can't give me enough information if I don't ask. And I can't ask if I'm presenting. Yeah. Great, great points. So, uh, give some, um, give the listeners. So what are examples of open-ended questions, how they should start? So I often start a lot of my sales calls with, I looked at your website, I've looked at your LinkedIn profile and I know that when you emailed me, you said that you wanted to talk about such and such. So I'll give that little preamble. I want them to know I did the homework and I also might legitimately have a question I want to ask before we dive in, because I don't understand something they sell. So there's a little intro and then I will always start about context. So I will say, and I would think this would be. Most industries, Marshall. I mean, I would think for most of your listeners, it's like, what have you done up until now? So I'm trying to drop it in this moment in time and understand where you are. So I will say something like, um, I'd love to understand what made you want to schedule the call, or so-and-so said that, you know, you were looking to, um, maybe hire a sales trainer. Will you give me an idea of what is happening in the organization that now feels like a time to consider that? Yeah. So try to drop into goals and timing its goals and timing, because if I can find out goals and timing quickly, then I actually know if it's a lead for right now or if it's for later. I think a lot of times we were talking and presenting and the person's only researching. I mean, I think. How is this? How is this not true, especially with cars, right? Like you want to know right away. Am I building relationship with you because I'll sell, I'll sell to your whole family and all of your friends forever, but you're actually not going to make a purchase today. And I should dress you to do that. Or are you serious about walking out with one? That issue of timing is really critical. So we've got to drop in and get them talking. Yeah. Yeah. And so much, especially in the car business, like when I came up in the nineties, it was, it was kill or be killed. You know, it was, it was hit them fast. Once they bust the curve, they're not coming back and we've had to evolve as time is going on. Not every customer is going to make a decision in 30 minutes and you got to respect that. And you know, w when I came up, it was, it was so combative and confrontational. It was either you sell them now or make sure they never come back later. Yeah. And I just think that's like cutting off your nose to spite your face because. It reminds me marsh of, um, my very, I guess it was actually our second house. We purchased the realtor that we bought from had this tagline on her business card. And it said your realtor for life. And, you know, I was 30 years old. I actually thought I was a stay in that house for a long time was, I didn't know we were going to move. And I remember looking at the tagline and thinking, what are we tagline? Because how many houses does a person buy? Like, I literally thought this. I remember thinking, okay, well not two and a half years later, we were selling that house, which I never would have anticipated just through a series of circumstances. We were, we moved across town. We bought that. We had, she was our seller agent and the buying agent and she was the seller agent for the other house. So thinking about the three transactions, then I'm not kidding. My sister. My parents moved to town, then my aunt not to be left out because now her mom had moved to town. My aunt and uncle moved to town. My parents downsize their house. Anyway, all the referrals. Last time I counted, she got 12 sales. Wow. Yeah. I'm not going to get up. And there's probably more in the, in the whole value chain I don't know about, but I know about 12. Okay. So she was a realtor for life and that was a good tagline. And so I think this is that whole thing about being a good human and asking good questions to understanding their goal in this moment and not, not being a jerk, because if you press people, you're missing the opportunity for the 12th houses. Yeah, definitely. Cause they'll tell someone, this is this, you know, he's so great to work with. Gave me exactly what I wanted worked with our budget and you'll set, they'll send everybody to you. I mean, referrals are about 90% of how I get my corporate clients and I imagine most people want more referrals. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And, and it's, it's, it's being able to have that space and respecting that space, that, of what the timeframe is. And you just do your part, you know, ultimately you can't make the decision for them, but you can heavily influence it. It's given them, you know, we're options trader and, and, and you know what, we're what we're here to do. We're image consultants. And so what we're here to do is we're here to, you know, make them look, feel, feel secure, whatever the case may be. But also we're, we're here to actually give them other ways of looking at it. So that way, this is the status part it's like, is this helping me be the kind of person look like the kind of person I want to be. Going forward. I, um, I'm going to speak at a tech conference coming up pretty soon. And I was literally thinking about that compared to the last event I had. And this is like a super tech conference, like database administrators. And so I was like, what a tech conference people were at conferences, probably, probably not very fancy, but I've been thinking about this issue of image, right. Status and image. And it's like, I don't want to be an obstacle to who they want to be, because my job is to show up. I have two sessions on teaching and my job is to help them be a better version of them. Right. So I don't want him to do anything that put, makes me in the way of that. And then being able to feel like I can relate. And then I want to, it's also my job to paint a picture of how this is, how this could go better for you. Can I be a guide for you in that process? And so it's an interesting role to play. Yeah. Um, and do you find that your. Is your, is your approach and your language going to be different because the minute you just said, um, what'd you say, what kind of people are they database administrator? So I think of vanilla, uh, to the point, just, just really just dry. That's the first image I have. So do you, do you find a, no shade out there to those in the, in the data field? I'm just calling it like it, like I see it. So do you find that is your approach going to be different? Um, based on, because they may tend to think that a room full of salespeople are. Yeah, totally different than, than them. So how do you, how do you position it? Yes, I think I would always present. I mean, the principles of how I think you sell well are never different. We start with beliefs, then we moved toward processes and then we talk about why people really buy that's the motives and values. We talk about how to construct our sentences in our marketing, our sales emails in a way that starts with the problem that we solve or the picture we paint before we present about our credentials, all of that training I provide and all that Methodist still true. But to your point, the part I emphasize will be different. And the part I lead with might be a little bit different because. These people are so technically proficient that they, they really, really, really do believe that it's the technical superiority of what they sell. That is what wins over customers. And so I have to convince them, I mean, I don't have to convince them. I would like to suggest to them that they will be more effective with selling. If they pepper in a little bit of that. What if I were to practice asking myself, how is this person feeling like we talked about earlier? Because I like to ask, what do you sell? Well, I sell a such and such contract database administration services. Okay. What do you really sell? Well, what do you mean? Yeah. What do you really sell? The more you get into that, the more they get down to understanding, gosh, I sell freedom because if you outsource this to me, now you're free to do this. Right? You need them to get to words like freedom, opportunity, new vision, ability to strategize. Um, oh, it's a relief, right? What all those nouns that are, they're not about the way you do database administration. And so that's going to take a little bit of perspective because some industries find that less believable than others. If I were to cover that as sales conference, I mean, most people would be like, oh yeah, I understand that people buy for the benefits they derive, but, but lots of people actually don't believe that's true. And they, they, they need some help seeing that, which you can even go back to. What was the last thing you purchased and why did you buy it? It was not because always, it was the most superior product it's because whatever you valued in that moment was the right thing at the right time. And it and methods. Yeah, what a tremendous challenge. And like you say, no matter, no matter what industry you're selling in those three, the MVP's apply and they're, they're timeless. They will not change at all. So when you read this book, you'll be able to. Take this down and no matter what field that you're actually in, you could put yourself a little bit at ease in the sense that you don't have to know how every note cranny and everything possibly works, you will never possibly know. A lot of that is, is just as experience goes on. But if you really hug up to making it easy and following this MVP list, you're going to find that you're more free to sell because you're going to be more connected to the, uh, to the customers is because they like you connected to you. They like you. That's why that's where you have Liberty to say, oh, I've asked that before. Can I go find out the answer? You know, you, you, you can be a real human and you don't have to be a perfectly presenting robot because you have built that rapport. Yeah. Yeah. It's not how good salespeople sell. It's how good you, so be the name, be your name, not your title. Um, and, and it just leaves a lasting impression. So with the few minutes that we have left, I, I would be remissed if I did not bring up chapter three, have a greater purpose in selling. Um, it's so very dear to my heart. Um, and talking in the offline before we hit the record button, um, that's where we really, really, uh, aligned with one another. You know, my, my job, you know, I call it the sales life because it's parallel to life. It's so much, it's so much of the same. So what I try to do is I try to bring a lot of the skills that I've learned in my 24 years of selling and apply those, how I've applied it to my personal life, but how others can. But I think many times from a professional and professional personal and professional standpoint, Catherine, I think many times that we really lose our purpose and what we do and why we do it. So would you, would you breathe life into chapter three a little bit and, and, and, and help help others see that there's a greater purpose to what you do? Sure. Sure. Well, I think selling is this two-prong thing right then, and the subject of purpose on one hand, because we, if we take the role of the guide, which I really like this metaphor, so I kind of in the book and chapter eight. So those are the, you're not a big reader. You might hear this and think, oh, I don't want to read another book, but it's only eight chapters plus an intro. And I've been told it takes about two and a half hours to read. So it's not a big, it's not a big commitment. It's meant to be simple and easy and very practical. Uh, but in chapter eight, I talk about this idea of hero and guides. And the idea is that when you are that. Pick on our strong man technical seller for a second, if you're presenting, presenting, presenting, and you actually believe people buy because of your technical superiority and that that's the primary driver, then what will happen is you'll talk about yourself too much. And we would say, you're making yourself the hero of the story. And there's only room in every story for one hero. And so when we're selling the hero is not you, the hero is your buyer because you play the role of a guide. And so we would say in movie language, we would say, you get to be up for best supporting actor, but you're not going to win best actor because everything in that conversation has to be focused on their goals and their timing and their objectives. And you, as a guide can say, well, I have a way that I've helped people do this before. This is what that might look like. Does that interest you? Okay. When you are a guy. Then you are helping people connect. It's not just about telling, selling the technical thing. You're helping them get where they're trying to go. And what's so lovely about this. I use really like, they're all true stories and they're very non-sexy examples in the book because I wanted it to be mundane so that people would, would make this connection that you could sell something. To me, sorry to me. Nope, Nope, no offense to this client, but I'm not car person. And so to me, fuel injection system parts is not interesting. It's not, it's not, it's not, it's not like selling coaching services, which is more interesting to me. Okay. But I really had them as a client. And what was so delightful was to see that like getting on the phone with someone and helping them decide between a couple of different kinds of parts was exciting to people who are car guys. And that this is a little piece in the puzzle of how they're going to go with their friends. These are for Amature is serious, but amateur racers. Okay. So if you're a car guy and you go do these races on the weekend with friends, this, this is for your community. I mean, this might be something you do with your family. Does, you're talking about entertainment, you're talking about identity. You're talking about experiences. So you don't sell a. You sell this thing that leads to experiences. So you can be filled with purpose and I believe derive so much joy from the fact that you are connecting the dots for them, by empowering them with this thing that you sell, because it's for something bigger. My other example in the book with that is hot 10 manufacturer, and some people are hot, 10 people, some people are not, I'm not really a hot tub person, but I love this example because my client understood the heated and sell tubs of warm water. He understood that when someone's walking in, what he wanted to ask about. Who's going to be in the hot tub with you, not in a weird intrusive way, but to say, is this for your family? Is this how you entertain? You know, if you have teenagers, I mean, they it's like too dangerous to bring your phone in the water cause you'll drop it. And so this could be about time where we hang out in the evening and we sit around together and we're device-free right. So just like Walt Disney understood. He didn't just create a theme park. He created memories and experiences. So does the hot tub manufacturer. It's just like, oh my gosh. I mean, that's just, that's so purposeful. And so I think that you can derive the two parts or you can derive so much satisfaction because you're a purpose giver in that way. You're empowering people, but also then they, you know, they're getting where they're trying to go and that makes them so happy. And I think people. I think they just don't stop long enough to think what is that thing I really sell and kind of dig deep on that. And when you dig deep on that, almost every product or service, you can get a better, more gratifying answer by slowing down thinking about that secondary or third level answer of what do I really sell? I would say those of you that manage sales teams, I mean, ask your team and do that as an exercise, because the words that will come out will really fuel and empower people toward purpose, which will I think, which will activate them. You're, you're a hundred percent. Right. And I love that we end on this because that is so good that, you know, number one, um, you know, you're a guide number two, Be up for best supporting actor, not a lead role, not the, you're not trying to, you're not trying to get the best actor award, let them become the hero. And then number three, just remember that you're selling experiences. If you just, if you did nothing, but those three things right there, you would sell in so much more of a relaxed state, um, the results will come to you the way that they need to come to you. You won't have this scarcity mentality. You won't be in this, uh, you know, this rigid frame of mind and eliminate the cynicism. And, and you'll just, you'll find a true career. Um, and in sales, it's, it's the best profession we flourishing with referrals because people will tell other people that they can tell you care. Yeah. And so they'll send all their friends to you. That's, that's what happens to me. I mean, it's just amazing how. I can't wait to log into my email and see what might be sitting there because I skipped stuff that happens like that all the time, because people, people share my name. And I think when you, when you do those things that you just highlighted, all of those principles of reciprocity, all that kicks into. So it's really lovely. Yeah. So what, uh, what is something you want to, to, to leave us with, uh, give us a little, Catherine Brown was dumb on our way out here. Oh, thank you so much. So I think that, um, it's, there is a little bit this, the golden rule here, right? That, that if you, if you are others focused and you ask yourself, what would a good human do in this situation? Right. Sometimes we have the angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other, right. So when we're at this crossroads in this moment, I could press them. I could try to convince them to buy. I could, you know, I could, um, I can apply some pressure here or I can listen, I can be okay. I can be at ease, right? Like ask yourself in these moments, what would a good human do? And I think that can be a guiding principle because most people want to be good. Most people want to, they just, they just do things out of habit and on autopilot, they get emotionally hijacked. They spin that out. And so slowing down and asking yourself and using that expression, even with yourself, like what would a good human do in this moment? I think that it will. Yeah, a hundred percent. So where can we learn more about Ms. Brown? Thank you so much. Well, my, how good humans sell.com website is my speaker site. So I really am wanting marsh to move more toward, you know, speaking for trade associations and all company meetings and all sales meetings, things like that can be zoom or in person. So how good human cell.com is a great website to go to? I also have a sales training site. That's the name of my corporation, which is called extra bold sales and, uh, E X, T R a B O L D extra bolt sales. So you can learn a lot about me there. And my book is available on Amazon, in paperback and Kindle. That is the most affordable and easiest way to get started with me. And this, if it resonates with people, then you can have me speak to your organization or, um, look at my classes and, um, all of that. That's great. Yeah, I've read this book. It's it's like Catherine said it's I dunno. It's a hundred pages of, I've read it four times around. It's one of those. This is your get out of jail. Free pass. Like number one. Did you want to change your life? Read the book. Number two is if you, if you feel that you're just getting kind of stagnant, you're just in this funk and sales get the book because this there's no, after you read this book, there was no reason in the world. If you apply these things, why you cannot be successful, it's not like it was useful. Thank you. Thanks for trusting me with your listeners. I appreciate you. All right. That's it. That's all. What did you think about today's episode and what are some key takeaways that you plan on applying to your life special? Thank you to Katherine Brown for taking time out to come on. She's super busy yet. She carved some time out for. So I would urge you to get the book it's not very long at all. And I think even if you're not in the profession, you're definitely in life. You're definitely selling your way through life. So check it out and support her and also connect with her on LinkedIn. She's super active on there and she's one of those people where, when she posts something. You immediately smile. That's just the kind of energy that she brings to every situation. So if you need a pick me up, are you trying to get up? Are you trying to move up in life? She'll help get you there. Remember the greatest sale that you will ever make is to sell you on you because you're more than enough. Stay amazing. Stay in the sales life.